=========================================================================== Posts about refinishing electric guitars =========================================================================== From: cmb@calmasd.prime.com Newsgroups: alt.guitar Subject: Re: Guitar Refinishing (Suggestions) Date: 3 Sep 92 18:45:19 GMT Organization: Computervision - A Division of Prime Computer In article <1992Sep1.173030.14214@news.unomaha.edu>, fishead@cwis.unomaha.edu (David L. Britton) writes: > I need suggestions on how to refinish a guitar (i.e. staining, painting, air > brushing, etc.) > > Any tips on the subject would be greatly appreciated. I've had good results without purchasing professional paint equipment. I recently did a Strat for a fellow who wanted a satin stain finish. First the wood needs to be sanded properly. I first stained with Minwax Red Mahogany and then sanded again using 400 grit wet-or-dry paper. I then put on a second, denser, coat of the red and let it sit overnight... longer if possible. I created a violin type, subtle, sunburst by doing the edges with a walnut color stain and following with the red while the darker color is still wet. After this has dried, I sand in (400 wet-or-dry) Watco walnut colored oil. This is a polymerizing oil that raises the grain and hardens as it dries. I sand it in because the fine residue creates a slurry that fills the pores of the wood. This needs 24 hours to dry. Then sand again. I reapply a similar coat of Watco and add some of the red stain if needed to work the color. Follow by hand rubbing the Watco in--the warmth of your hands helps the oil permeate the wood. Wipe off all the excess. When fully dry, the Watco and rubbing have created a glass-like sheen and texture. The final procedure is the use of Bison brand staining waxes. I have four colors, and I use these to shade and highlight the surface while adding depth to the finish. It's a lot of elbow work! The results are really nice, but it is not the high gloss type finish that most people want. If you want the standard, high gloss paint finish, you'll want to use laquer (that's what's used for most of the Gibsons and Fenders et al.). I just use spray cans, because I don't have a compressor. I just finished doing a 1960 Strat in black. It was hard and very laborious, but turned out great. Her's a hint...you need NITROCELLULOSE laquer; it's increasingly hard to get (an ingredient of gun powder!). In fact I couldn't find any...so after priming, I used ACRYLIC laquer. The difference is that nitrocellulose dries hard and "chips" away, whereas acrylic takes FOREVER to dry and it "peels". I sprayed about three coats at a time letting each dry to flashing (dry to touch) or about 15 minutes between coats. Then I let them dry 24 hrs. Then sand...using 400 grit wet-or-dry AND a sanding block (or your fingers will leave grooves). This goes on for days, until 16-20 coats have built up. The next step is to let it "cure"-- 4 weeks to harden, AT LEAST, for the acrylic finish. Shooting two coats of clear nitrocellulose would quicken the process, and I recommend that if you can find it. The real work here is in the sanding. After building a perfect flat painted surface using the 400 grit, you then follow with 600 grit (and water or Naptha to lubricate.). Finally you'll use two grades of polishing compound and...Wallah!...you'll swear you'll NEVER do this again! -- turns out great though! Be sure and check out Dan Erlewine's article on Advanced Finishes in Guitar Player mag. Nov. 1988, p. 136., and good luck! Mark Bonney --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: curt@lanl.gov (Curtis Novak) Newsgroups: alt.guitar Subject: Re: Repainting a guitar. Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 15:30:08 GMT Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory In article <3hva20$hk6@josie.abo.fi> majakobs@news.abo.fi (Markus Jakobsson FIN) writes: >Hello there. >My question is this: what should I do when I want to repaint my guitar? I have >an old piece of shit guitar that I bought when I was just starting to play >electric guitar. When I got a proper one, I basically put it on a shelf and let >it collect dust, but the other week I took it down and plugged it in, and I >actually found it to sound halfway decent. It plays like shit, though, and if >I want it to stay in tune, I'll have to throw the whammy bar into the gorge of >mount doom, but it would still be fun to pull it out for one or two songs at >some gig, and so I would like to repaint it. > To do this, should I remove the old paint completely, i.e. should I sand it >down to the bare wood, or is it enough to just remove the top layer of the >finish? > What types of paint and finish should I use?(I'm thinking of doing a sort >of Joe Satriani Ibanez type thing with it) > If anybody could give some advice on this, I would be most grateful. > Thanks in advance. > Mak(majakobs@aton.abo.fi) This is my process. . . goodluck Tips for Color Finishing Guitars and Bases If the guitar is has a removable neck, it is a good idea make a mock neck to be used as a handel for painting and hanging. To make this handle you will need about a 2 foot piece of wood or steel cut to fit in the neck cavity on the body. Make the end of the handle that will bolt to the body smaller than the neck cavity. This will allow the paint to get in the neck cavity too. Drill the holes in the handle that are needed to bolt the handel to the body then drill another hole on the other end of the handel to be used for hanging the body during the drying periods and/or during painting. The handel I use is a 1x2 that uses 2 screws. I alternate these 2 screws all holes on the body get painted. It is also a good idea to place some kind of spacers between the body and the wood handle, I use large nuts, this allows paint to get underneath handle. I usually hang it for drying in an unused closet so not to be disturbed. WOOD PREP In refinishing an instrument if at all possible I do not remove the base finish, because you can sometimes pull your hair out trying to seal the wood without the grain rising. I once refinished a bass for a music store this poor thing was left in the direct sun in a van during a trade fair well the heat melted the finish bad. It looked real bad but was an easy fix all I had to do was test the paint type, sand it down smooth and spray the same color over it, clear coat it, shine it and that was it no wood prep. Patching holes are some what harder. I have a Jaguar I am working on that has a bullet hole through the body (Must have been a rough night uh?) well I used a synthetic Bondo this time, but I have not yet gotten the patch to stop rising with moisture. Synthetic Bondo is more stable however water base wood dough for large holes. There are 2 ways to fix small dents and dings. On some dents it is possible to swell them out by putting a wet rag on the dent and then palceing a hot soldering iron on the wet rag over the dent. The steam causes the crushed wood fibers to expand back out this process is good on clear finishes and dents in the neck. I once had to refinish a beautiful Strat that a puppy had chewed up. There were zillions of little dents in it. I just used wood dough on these and when it was finished you couldn't find a single hole. WATER SANDING You will need a bowl of water, water sandpaper, clean soft rag or a towel. Get a bowl of water place sand paper in the water for a minute or so. Then take the paper and lightly in a circular motion start sanding. Some suggest to use a sanding block to keep from sanding uneven, but I find that the block tends to build up too much debris and scratch the finish. I use a sanding block during wood prep, and use a flat hand on water sanding. Frequently wipe the body with the rag and rinse the paper in the water to clean the paper. The water will help to lube the sanding process so you need to keep rinsing the paper to keep the paper free from debris. You will also want to keep wiping the body with the rag to keep the body from soaking up too much water causing the body to swell. This swelling usually happens where the raw wood is exposed like the screw holes or where you have sanded through. Try to keep these places as dry as possible. PAINTS When painting always paint the sides, and the horns first then paint the front and back this minimizes any overspray on the front and back. Use smooth complete sweeping strokes. It is also recommended that you use a continuous stream of paint not stopping and starting at each end. This is recommended because the sprayer will spit any paint blobs that may be on the tip, or when pressure is not at its peak. I would also recommend that for your first time you start with a light color. A Darker color will show every mistake including minor things like swirls from in inadequate sanding and dents or blemishes that you will not see until you are done. I prefer Lacquer based paints because most of my jobs have been to refinish vintage instruments. Fender use to use actual Auto paint for there guitars for example Lake Placid Blue is actually a 1957 Cadillac color. Lacquer finishes are much more brittle than polys that is why those old Fenders chip so easy. Lacquer will also offer a much higher gloss than polys. It is your pick on which to use, but it is VERY IMPORTANT TO NOT MIX THEM!!! If you do mix them for example by using a lacquer primer, lacquer color coat, and a poly clear coat you will have just created a paint remover, and you will have to start from scratch. Always test the paint on a scrap to make they are compatible. Primer Sealer I usually use BIN as a primer you can found it in the hardware store. It is used for covering graffiti, crayon and is compatible with lacquers, polys and most other paints, but remember always test. A big part of refinishing is trial and error. Color Coat For the color coat I use Dupont acrylic lacquer if your lucky as I was the paint store has the original paint chip books from the 40', 50's and so on so you can search for that perfect color. Clear Coat Some people don't use clear coats, but I prefer them because it gives a much higher gloss, deeper finish, and it also protects the finish. I break a rule here in mixing brands but I prefer Shurwin Williams #### sealer from your auto paint store. It is real simple just thin and spray. Paint Sprayers You can purchase what is called a Jet Pack which is an presure cartridge that attaches to a jar holding your paint. These sprayers give good coverage and you can get refill cartridges, and use this as your main sprayer. You can also find high quality color, and clear paints in factory packed spray cans. Before you buy a can of spray check the always tip. It is best if the tip is an adjustable pattern tip not just the standard pin hole tip. Steps to follow for Color Finishes. 1 Sand and fill the raw wood use 320 grit. If the grain is rough sand smooth wipe the body with a wet rag let the grain rise when dry sand smooth again. Repeat this until the grain dose not rise any more. Let it set for a day or so to let the moisture evaporate. 2 Spray light coat of sealer let dry let set for 1 hour repeat with 2 more coats. Let it set for a day. 3 Lightly water sand finish smooth 320 to 400 grit paper. (see water sanding) 4 At this point fill any dings and scratches that show through from sanding you will want a smooth finish. For a filler you can use Bondo in the squeeze tube. Let set for a day to allow moisture to evaporate. 5 Repeat steps 3 through 5 until finish is smooth. Let set a day or 2. 6 Spray a light coat of your color coat let set until the coat flashes (dry to the touch) then spray a little heavier coat let it flash again repeat this 2 more times then spray one final coat and let set about 3 days. 7 At this point I water sand with 400 grit to smooth out finish, and for one last check for dings. 8 If you sanded through the color or found any mistakes fix them wait a day then repeat steps 6 through 8 until satisfied. 9 Wait 3 days or so then spray your clear coat start with a very light coat let it flash then spray a little heavier coat again let it flash repeat this 3 more times then do one kind of heavy coat to give a nice top coat be careful not to do it so heavy that it will run. 10 If runs or other problems sand out problems and try another layer or so of the clear coat. 11 Give it a rest for a week or more to let the finish set. 12 Now the magic starts. Start water sanding with 400 grit until the whole body is smooth. Switch to 600 grit do same at this point it should have a finish like stainless steel next I go to 1000 grit, then 1200, then 1500, then 2000. at this point it should look like a sheet glass with very fine scratches. 13 Now you are ready to rub-out the finish. I use Meguiar's #4 (found in auto paint stores)it is a gritty compound that takes out more of the scratches. I ball up a soft rag and squeeze some compound on the body and rub like hell in a circular pattern (think of Karate Kid. . .wax on wax off). Push hard the friction helps to melt and smooth the finish. I would not recommend using a power buffer at this point unless you are really experienced cause it is easy to melt through the finish and depending on how bad you melt it you will have to go back to step 3 or 6. 14 Final step use Meguiar's #7 and once again rub like hell. 15 Give it a day before you assemble it, and pat your self on the back for a job well done. If you have any comments, suggestions, questions, corrections please feel free to let me know. I would also be interested in any thing you have learned on you project, and I would love to see any before and after pictures. Good Luck. . . be patient |\/\/\/\/| | | | 0 0) (. _) | ,___ - Later Dude | / Curt - __ | | - / \ -- --===--- --===--- - | |_| | \__/ --------- | |__| __ / /|\ \___ | --==-- /@ \ | | \// \ | | \|/ / /\\ __\\\|/_______|_|__|___________ /___\ \\____\//___\\ /________\|/_________ . . . Just say NO to coyote art! Curtis Novak curt@lanl.gov Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.builders From: sonam@carroll.com (Sonam) Subject: Hi-Tech Auto Finish on Guitars Organization: Carroll.net Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 23:03:39 GMT Hi! I've just refinished a guitar using, for the first time, a two-part (catalyst/paint) high tech finish, and I'd like to share my experience with those who may be interested. First, let me thank John Suhr, who encouraged me to try these kinds of finishes - he said that I would be pleased and wow, was he right! Thanx John! Second, let me repeat the warning: these finishes are highly toxic; you MUST use a dual charcoal-cannister plus pre-filter mask made for these finishes. You MUST use gloves - and do not use it in the home unless you have an exhausted spray booth. I used my garden shed :> I chose PPG's DELTRON 2000 system because the guy in the supply store was the nicest of any that I went to, and someone who gave me an hour's worth of instruction on these finishes (BTW I'm an old hot-rodder, and have been spraying nitrocellulose since the late '50's). I'd suggest that you buy the brand sold at the supply house with the friendliest guys! I chose an acrylic urethane because that's what John suggested. The Primer-Surfacer was K-200, and one mixex the catalyst, the Primer-Surfacer and reducer in two coats. Like lacquer, it flashes off in 5-10 minutes. But this stuff has a fast, high build, and self-levels like nothing I've EVER seen! After an overnight dry, you sand it with 600 then 1000 paper, and it is the easiest sanding finish I ever laid a hand to - it comes out like VELVET in no time at all! Because my customer wanted a dark metallic blue, the supplier suggested a basecoat/clearcoat system (Deltron 2000). This means that the clearcoat actually becomes part of the basecoat after it catalyzes. It also means that you don't have to sand until you've finished the very last coat - an incredible time saver if you're used to lacquer. The color coat is applied quite thin - a 150% reduction, but it covers really quickly - two dust to medium coats worked just fine, and again, only 10 minutes between coats. The clearcoat is now applied after a 15 minute wait. This product is mixed with a catalyst and a reducer, and the coats go on wet. Again, only a 10 minute wait between coats. When this stuff goes on, it looks deep as water, and by the last coat, it looks 10 feet deep! It cures for three days, and here's the nice part: you START your rub-out with 1000 paper! And does it sand easy! I finished up with 2000 paper, and went to Meguiars (commercial) rub-out; then to their fine and super-fine. It buffs easily - much more so than lacquer - and each succeeding procedure makes it shine more and more. In short, I am quite pleased with this system: it sprays easily (even my wife could do it), it requires little rub-out, and it provides a deep, glossy finish that is more durable than lacquer. The disadvantages: (1) it's expensive - it cost me $145 for the initial set-up, and about $45 for a pint of the color (2) it stinks (puke-puke) - I mean the smell is awful, and you can not let your protection lapse for a second The advantages: (1) easy to apply, easy to rub-out (2) sprays beautifully (3) the colors available are limitless - my supplier has software that allows you to match almost any color (including pearl) that you can imagine - and you can be creative and add metallic to the clearcoat too (4) the final look is tremendous - my next project will be to try the clearcoat alone over stained wood. Well, I hope that some of you found this interesting enough to give it a try - I'm glad that I did, since it opens a new world of finishes to me and my customers! I'm no expert on this stuff, but if you'd like to email me for comments and such, please feel free to do so! -- Peace, Sonam Custom-made solidbody guitars - Repairs, Customizing & Hot-Rodding Too! From: dehartcg@jmu.edu (Chuck DeHart) Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.builders Subject: TRU GUN OIL FINISH ACOUSTIC OR OTHERWISE Date: 16 Nov 1995 18:49:45 GMT Organization: James Madison University, Harrisonburg, VA Finishing Your Instrument With Tru Gun Oil Some recent discussion and a handful of requests moves me to relate the guitar finishing technique in which I was trained. I am not affiliated with Birchwood Casey, nor are my former teachers Anthony Huvard and Bill Davis, Jr. (Northwest School of Instrument Design, ca. 1980, Seattle and Skykomish, Washington). As I expect with this newsgroup, others are encouraged to add and comment because I do not know it all. I have finished six instruments of my own construction with this process. I have done one instrument in lacquer. I am also a regular reader of Fine Woodworking where I would recommend others search for more information on finishing wood products. Remember that finishing rags can spontaneously combust and ruin your day/life. Dispose of them properly (in a bucket of water? Who can help me here?) Most finishing products are flammable and poisonous so use according to directions. I think the best way to talk about this finishing process is to: 1) talk a little about some of the differences between Tru Gun Oil and Lacquer, 2) highlight some important aspects of final sanding, the shellac washcoat and filling pores, and 3) discuss in some detail the varnish finish. Did I say varnish? Yes, Tru Gun Oil is actually a varnish. See Fine Woodworking (sorry, don't remember the exact edition) within the last year or two for an article about the difference between an oil and a varnish. (For example is linseed oil an oil? Is boiled linseed oil an oil? How about tung oil?) Tru Gun Oil vs. Lacquer I was taught to especially use a varnish on classical guitars. It is softer and less likely to effect sound. Likewise, it is not as durable as a hard "plastic coating." The varnish finish may dent and scratch easier. It does feel softer and I like that when I play my guitars. A varnish may be applied with more tolerance to temperature and humidity. It is more easily applied by a brush or soft cloth, no spray set up is necessary. A varnish thins with turpentine (any brand will do) while I hear that the lacquer thinner should match that recommended by the manufacturer of the lacquer. Lacquer is a "hot" finish, i.e., each layer of lacquer chemically bonds to the layer underneath, becoming "one." Varnish does not! This may be the single most important difference to remember because it will drive other important processes of the finish. Comments About Final Sanding: The quality of your finishing job will be driven by the quality of the surface to which it is applied. Final sanding is critical and if you spend a lot of time on it you will save time later. Number one, go for an even finish, no matter what the final grade of sandpaper used. I sand to the backside of 600 grit. Make sure that there are no high spots (like the end grain of your custom rosette) or low spots. When you sand between coats later, you will probably sand through these high spots. In low spots a "pool" of varnish may collect and not fully harden. Comments About The Shellac Washcoat: I apply two "washcoats" of thinned shellac with a light sanding between coats. Remember that varnish does not adhere well to oily wood and the shellac washcoat is vital. Also, pay special attention to rosewoods and other bleeders/oily woods (one reason to finish the bridge and pickguard separately). A rosewood binding will bleed onto your spruce top if you are not careful. You can diminish the effect of bleeding bindings by VERY CAREFULLY "washing" out the oils with denatured alcohol (the same solvent for shellac). (On my cutaway, I made a three piece neck with book matched curly maple sandwiching a piece of coca bola. I allowed the bleeding to mix onto the maple, using denatured alcohol to evenely wash it out and add a very slight red tint to the maple.) (Although I have never used it, I understand that pure grain alcohol is the same as denatured alcohol without poison in it. Has anybody tried using it? I would want to avoid the poison and am willing to pay the liquor tax.) Comments About Filling Pores: If you don't, the pores will suck down your finish and you will see these dimples later. Your sandpaper will not hit them and these low spots will have a different gloss than the surface. Also, if you add oil colors to the filler, consider using Japan Dryer to compensate for the oil added (to help harden the filler because you changed its chemistry when you added oil colors). A little goes a long way. The Tru Gun Oil Finish: Your first temptation to achieve a high gloss finish will be to try to get a couple of quick thick coats applied. Resist this temptation. Remember that one layer will set on top of the other. If you develop a drip, you will sand through it between coats (400 grit wet). The varnish inside the drip will not harden. As you sand away this high spot, you will create a ring where the high spot meets flat (good finish). The more you attempt to sand away this tiny "ledge" of finish, the bigger this ring will get. You cannot escape this vicious cycle and you may sand through the layer underneath also. Each time you sand to the surface, you must start over again on that part of the instrument (thus the 8 to 10 coats routine). I started using a brush and now use a soft, lint free cloth to apply a thin coat (full strength from the bottle). The trick of experience is to know how thick you can make the coat without creating a drip. Large flat surfaces, like the top and back, handle well. Watch especially for drips at the edges (bindings), the lower bout (if you hang the instrument from the head) and detail like the machine wells (classical guitars). Although your shellac washcoat tacked almost immediately, you have a little more time to play with wiping away excess varnish, but don't push it. Light wet sand between coats, 400 grit sand paper. Especially light on the first coat. Remember that the main purpose for light sanding between coats is to remove slight undulations in the finish left from the brush, cloth or flecks of dust. If you final sanded properly, you should not sand through the finish because there are no high spots. Use the same sanding block, making sure that it is not one of the plastic ones you buy in the hardware store because they tend to flex and not hold a true flat surface. Look for the tiny flecks of dust that stuck to your finish because your environment is not perfect. You may want to carefully use a thumb sized piece of sandpaper on these tiny spots. (Use a tack cloth before each coat.) Watch out for sanding through the finish at the bindings or other edges. Varnish does not stick well to oily woods, like rosewood. If you sand through your washcoat, and into oily wood, you may have to reapply the shellac washcoat on these small spots. Maintain good lighting from several angles so you can see what is happening to your surface. Clip lamps, lots of clip lamps. They also can help with drying if humidity is high or temperature low. When you think you have the entire surface area coated, lightly sand to the backside of 600 grit sandpaper and check again. Sandthrough will usually show a lighter color, especially after your wet surface dries. To polish the finish, mix rottenstone with mineral spirits. (FFFF is, I believe, actually tin oxide.) Make a toothpaste and rub it onto the surface with a soft cloth in circles. Spirit off any accumulation with mineral spirits and check for sandthrough again. Again, sandthrough will be hard to miss after the mineral spirits evaporate and leave rottenstone dust in your grain. Finally, I use a floor wax, Johnson's, to add the final sheen and protection to the finish. Apply with a softcloth per directions. (I don't work for Johnson's either). Having said the above, would anyone care to talk about French polishing? Its a process I would like to know more about. Final Words: Jam on and don't worry about keeping your finish perfect! Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.builders Organization: James Madison University, Harrisonburg, VA From: dehartcg@jmu.edu (Chuck DeHart) Subject: Re: Enhancing Flamed Maple Date: 4 Mar 1997 17:27:16 GMT In article <01bc2534$46f32c00$ce4d22cf@default>, pvanram@connect.ab.ca says... > >I am about to complete an electric bass I am building that will be finished >with tung oil. With this in mind, does anybody have suggestions on how to >enhance the grain on the flamed maple veneer? > >Thanks >Paul van Ramshorst Hi Paul, I am not sure what kind of results you want, but the best thing I know to do with highly figured maple is to this: Practice this first. Final planing should be done almost perpendicular to the grain to minimize tearout. Make sure that the wood is sanded to perfection. I work through to the backside of 600 grit sand paper. The backside will help to burnish the surface. Before finishing, dampen the wood to raise the grain. The figure will cause very uneven rising, so don't do it with the finishing product, dampen it. Sand it again to the backside of 600 grit sandpaper. Repeat the dampening and sanding a second time. Apply the finish of your choice. The wood is beautiful and needs only to be processed so that it can show its best features! Check out some of the pics on my web page: http://falcon.jmu.edu/~dehartcg/cdhome.htm The dulcimer is finished in lacquer, everything else as described in my article on using Tru Oil. Good luck! Chuck Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.builders Organization: MindSpring Enterprises From: Bill Hatcher To: Paul van Ramshorst Subject: Re: Enhancing Flamed Maple Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 00:50:49 +0000 Paul van Ramshorst wrote: > > I am about to complete an electric bass I am building that will be finished > with tung oil. With this in mind, does anybody have suggestions on how to > enhance the grain on the flamed maple veneer? > > Thanks > Paul van Ramshorst Paul. This always raises a hailstorm of posts. Don't use the "dung" oil!! It is an easy and cheap finish, but in my opinion does nothing to protect the instrument. Yes there are these new space age tung oil concoctions out there but when you really get down to it, a sprayed on lacquer finish will protect the bass, cause the depth of the figure in the maple to look great, and add intrinsic value to your hard work. I will now jump behind a 10 foot wall while all the "short cut" tung oil people have their say. Regards. Bill Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.builders Organization: MindSpring Enterprises From: Bill Hatcher Subject: Re: Help: spray booth ventilation. Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 13:01:09 +0000 Brian3647 wrote: > > Rick...thanks for the reply and comments. > Yes...I am concerned about the possibilities of sparks and possible > explosions. > I realize it's a very real concern. > Having said that, however, I have been stupid enough over the years to use > every sort of fan as a spray booth....the typical "box fans" you buy at > walmart for 25 bucks....stuck in a window and everything in between. I > have never had even a hint of a problem. In actual fact, I've never heard > of anyone who has either. I think it's a wise precaution though, and plan > to vist the local motor shop and see if there is a way to shield the > motor or "bag it" to make it "intrinsically safe" > > Let us know what you come up with. > > Brian I did not see the original post on this but I assume that someone is asking about what kind of fan/motor assembly to use in a spray booth. When you spray nitro lacquer in a booth you have the lacquer in its most volitile state. If you go outside and pour some on the ground and throw a match on it it will burn sort of like kerosene, real nasty black sooty smoke. BUT!! When you spray it in a room and if by some unfortunate accident ignite it, it will explode like a bomb!!!! Do not use ANYTHING in a spray booth exept an explosion-proof motor with an aluminum blade. An aluminum blade will not cause sparks if it hits something. Go to Grainger Co. and see what they carry. All open motors such as the (Unbelievably stupid idea) "Wal Mart box fan" will have the exposed motor brushes sparking and if this spark comes in contact with a concentrated vapor of flammable finish then it will ignite and this is not a slow fire, we are talking EXPLOSION!?>!?<#?!?!?!?@<@#?! Don't try this at home!@! Regards. Bill Hatcher Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.builders From: billbolton@onaustralia.com.au (Bill Bolton) Subject: Re: removing "plastic" 70's Fender finish Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:59:37 GMT "Tim Martin" wrote: > I'd like to refinish the body but I gather from a previous > experience that this finish is nearly impossible to remove by conventional > means. Any ideas? 100% safe but slow and tedious method Use power sanders to abrade it off. Figure on 8 to 16 hours of sanding using hand held power tools, with a lot of hand finishing around the inside of the "horns". After a while the colour will come off and you will see what appears to be wood underneath... don't be fooled, you've just taken off the colour coats and have a whole bunch of clear coats to go through still. Eventually you will get down to real bare wood. Somewhat risky but much quicker method Use a paint stripping heat gun . The thickskin finish will soften and craze if heated. The trick is to heat a small area and then get a flat, flexible 20mm paint scraper onto it quickly. The finish will sort of "shatter" off. It may take two passes over an area to get it all off. The risk is that you may overheat the surface and char the wood, so start out in an area that's covered by a pickguard. It takes a steady hand and cool nerves to get it right, but once you have mastered the technique you can get a body back to bare wood in about 2 to 3 hours, with perhaps a further hour of clean up power and hand sanding. I've done four thickskin strip backs, two by power sanding and two by heat stripping. Cheers, Bill Bill Bolton billbolton@onaustralia.com.au Sydney, Australia Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar Organization: WebSpan Inc., New Jersey From: shafner@webspan.net Subject: Re: Fender Lacquer Flaking Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 21:52:07 -0500 >You will never see Lacquer flaking on any new Fender because it's not >lacquer; it is about a quarter inch of polyurethane varnish, probably >the biggest tone killer in the world, but it does satisfy all those >people who want their guitars to be shiny instead of sounding good. With >the amount of varnish they put on these things, they might as well make >them out of plastic. > >RCB Just for the record, the finish is either nitrocellulose lacquer or polyester. It is not polyurethane. Whatever the finish, it is sprayed on and buffed to a brilliant shine. I like the sound that lacquer adds to woods more than the sound that polyester adds. Polyester is a thicker build of finish than lacquer. All finishes except shellac can be thought of as plastic. They are all products whose resins come from petroleum. Shellac comes from the secretions of a bug in India. Polyester is a more durable finish than lacquer. It is more difficult to scrach and harder to damage with chemicals, including the oils from our hands which can soften some finishes over time. (Those bare spots under your neck where your palm touches are from not washing those oils off with a milky-white furniture polish. This happens on the arms of chairs, door and drawer fronts, and railings and banisters. Some people call this gunk "waxy build-up". Although it is sebacious, its cause is us and not wax which is innocuous.) That's my two cents on finishes. -- Daniel Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar Organization: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM From: abrumley@PROBLEM_WITH_YOUR_MAIL_GATEWAY_FILE.nmsu.edu (A. BRUMLEY) Subject: Re: Mahogany finish Date: 18 Jan 1997 22:04:42 GMT If all you've done is apply lemon oil and play the thing you should be able to remove a lot of that with naptha. If the grain in the wood has become indestict them you need to naptha and wire wool it to get the dirt out of the pores. I would even consider stripper. Once the guitar is claen and oil free you should decide if you want to be able to keep it looking the way it does. If so buy a book or video on guitar finishing and put on some kind of real finish that seals the wood. Lemon oil mon't do that for you and can lead to a very unstable neck. Good luck Jim Radmer (JR@IPUKT.DTU.DK) wrote: : 5 years ago I made a guitar from one piece of mahogany. It has faded a : lot in color and the wood needs freshen up in color and finish. : : Does any of you know a way to treat the wood so it becomes lighter in : color and the lines in the wood becomes clearer ? : : It is now finished in lemon oil. : : I was thinking about sand blasting the body or perhaps acid like you do : on old furniture. : : - Jim Radmer Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar Organization: Tandem Computers, Inc. From: COLLINS_JIM@tandem.com (Jim Collins) Subject: Re: STRAT FRETBOARD: Maple or Rosewood? Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:12:37 -0700 In article <57du55$3p9@news.microsoft.com>, chrisshe@microsoft.com (Not A Speck of Cereal.) wrote: > x-no-archive: yes > > sefstrat@aol.com wrote: > [] <> > [] > [] They feel different. Play them both, get the one you like. Rosewood has > [] a woody, more pourous feel; maple has a more treated, slick feel (if it's > [] done poorly, it can be sticky, when done well, it's smooth and fast). > > If one has a maple neck that has shown a tendency to be sticky, > what could one do to 'speed it up', as it were. > If you have a maple neck finished in the old style, which was a rather thick lacquer, and this is slowing you down, the fix is pretty easy. Take some 0000 steel wool, and buff the neck and fretboard. 0000 steel wool is not abrasive enough to do any damage -- actually, it is, but you'd get pretty tired of rubbing before anything bad happened. You won't be rubbing off all of the finish -- you'll just be making it feel like someone has been playing it for a long time. You can also use this on the backs of necks with rosewood fretboards, if they are finished in the old style. When you do this, you'll get very fine particles of steel wool all over, so you'll have to clean the guitar. These particles will be attracted to your pickups, so you might want to cover them for the procedure. Jimmy Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.builders Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory From: curt@lanl.gov (Curtis Novak) Subject: Re: repairing and repainting/help needed Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 00:02:04 GMT In article <55j0fr$6a2@thorn.cc.usm.edu>, bbrien@ocean.st.usm.edu (Benjamin Sherman Brien) wrote: I just finished up restoring 2 Jaguars one had a bullet hole through it. I cleaned up the hole filled the major part with a dowel and used auto bondo to finish up the hole with. I then seal with Zinser Bin white primer sealer. Warning I have repaired holes this way many times when you spray the primer the patch will rise. You must wait around 2 weeks sand and re-seal this can take 6 months to eliminate the swelling ;{ I once tried to rush this step and lived to regret it. This time I was patient and followed this process for over a year and it really paid off and you cant see the patch! I will attach my process for finishing electrics. Note I mainly restore vintage Fenders so this is slanted towards them. BTW on that note I would appreciate any info anyone has on vintage Fender paint colors I have a few Duco paint colors but I need more. My latest major focus is on a Salmon color I need a Name and or Duco number.. enjoy.... curt --------------------------------- attached ------------------------------- Tips for Color Finishing Guitars and Bases If the guitar is has a removable neck, it is a good idea make a mock neck to be used as a handel for painting and hanging. To make this handle you will need about a 2 foot piece of wood or steel cut to fit in the neck cavity on the body. Make the end of the handle that will bolt to the body smaller than the neck cavity. This will allow the paint to get in the neck cavity too. Drill the holes in the handle that are needed to bolt the handel to the body then drill another hole on the other end of the handel to be used for hanging the body during the drying periods and/or during painting. The handel I use is a 1x2 that uses 2 screws. I alternate these 2 screws all holes on the body get painted. It is also a good idea to place some kind of spacers between the body and the wood handle, I use large nuts, this allows paint to get underneath handle. I usually hang it for drying in an unused closet so not to be disturbed. WOOD PREP In refinishing an instrument if at all possible I do not remove the base finish, because you can sometimes pull your hair out trying to seal the wood without the grain rising. I once refinished a bass for a music store this poor thing was left in the direct sun in a van during a trade fair well the heat melted the finish bad. It looked real bad but was an easy fix all I had to do was test the paint type, sand it down smooth and spray the same color over it, clear coat it, shine it and that was it no wood prep. Patching holes are some what harder. I have a Jaguar I am working on that has a bullet hole through the body (Must have been a rough night uh?) well I used a synthetic Bondo this time, but I have not yet gotten the patch to stop rising with moisture. Synthetic Bondo is more stable however water base wood dough for large holes. There are 2 ways to fix small dents and dings. On some dents it is possible to swell them out by putting a wet rag on the dent and then palceing a hot soldering iron on the wet rag over the dent. The steam causes the crushed wood fibers to expand back out this process is good on clear finishes and dents in the neck. I once had to refinish a beautiful Strat that a puppy had chewed up. There were zillions of little dents in it. I just used wood dough on these and when it was finished you couldn't find a single hole. WATER SANDING You will need a bowl of water, water sandpaper, clean soft rag or a towel. Get a bowl of water place sand paper in the water for a minute or so. Then take the paper and lightly in a circular motion start sanding. Some suggest to use a sanding block to keep from sanding uneven, but I find that the block tends to build up too much debris and scratch the finish. I use a sanding block during wood prep, and use a flat hand on water sanding. Frequently wipe the body with the rag and rinse the paper in the water to clean the paper. The water will help to lube the sanding process so you need to keep rinsing the paper to keep the paper free from debris. You will also want to keep wiping the body with the rag to keep the body from soaking up too much water causing the body to swell. This swelling usually happens where the raw wood is exposed like the screw holes or where you have sanded through. Try to keep these places as dry as possible. PAINTS When painting always paint the sides, and the horns first then paint the front and back this minimizes any overspray on the front and back. Use smooth complete sweeping strokes. It is also recommended that you use a continuous stream of paint not stopping and starting at each end. This is recommended because the sprayer will spit any paint blobs that may be on the tip, or when pressure is not at its peak. I would also recommend that for your first time you start with a light color. A Darker color will show every mistake including minor things like swirls from in inadequate sanding and dents or blemishes that you will not see until you are done. I prefer Lacquer based paints because most of my jobs have been to refinish vintage instruments. Fender use to use actual Auto paint for there guitars for example Lake Placid Blue is actually a 1957 Cadillac color. Lacquer finishes are much more brittle than polys that is why those old Fenders chip so easy. Lacquer will also offer a much higher gloss than polys. It is your pick on which to use, but it is VERY IMPORTANT TO NOT MIX THEM!!! If you do mix them for example by using a lacquer primer, lacquer color coat, and a poly clear coat you will have just created a paint remover, and you will have to start from scratch. Always test the paint on a scrap to make they are compatible. Primer Sealer I usually use BIN as a primer you can found it in the hardware store. It is used for covering graffiti, crayon and is compatible with lacquers, polys and most other paints, but remember always test. A big part of refinishing is trial and error. Color Coat For the color coat I use Dupont acrylic lacquer if your lucky as I was the paint store has the original paint chip books from the 40', 50's and so on so you can search for that perfect color. Clear Coat Some people don't use clear coats, but I prefer them because it gives a much higher gloss, deeper finish, and it also protects the finish. I break a rule here in mixing brands but I prefer Shurwin Williams #### sealer from your auto paint store. It is real simple just thin and spray. Paint Sprayers You can purchase what is called a Jet Pack which is an presure cartridge that attaches to a jar holding your paint. These sprayers give good coverage and you can get refill cartridges, and use this as your main sprayer. You can also find high quality color, and clear paints in factory packed spray cans. Before you buy a can of spray check the always tip. It is best if the tip is an adjustable pattern tip not just the standard pin hole tip. Steps to follow for Color Finishes. 1 Sand and fill the raw wood use 320 grit. If the grain is rough sand smooth wipe the body with a wet rag let the grain rise when dry sand smooth again. Repeat this until the grain dose not rise any more. Let it set for a day or so to let the moisture evaporate. 2 Spray light coat of sealer let dry let set for 1 hour repeat with 2 more coats. Let it set for a day. 3 Lightly water sand finish smooth 320 to 400 grit paper. (see water sanding) 4 At this point fill any dings and scratches that show through from sanding you will want a smooth finish. For a filler you can use Bondo in the squeeze tube. Let set for a day to allow moisture to evaporate. 5 Repeat steps 3 through 5 until finish is smooth. Let set a day or 2. 6 Spray a light coat of your color coat let set until the coat flashes (dry to the touch) then spray a little heavier coat let it flash again repeat this 2 more times then spray one final coat and let set about 3 days. 7 At this point I water sand with 400 grit to smooth out finish, and for one last check for dings. 8 If you sanded through the color or found any mistakes fix them wait a day then repeat steps 6 through 8 until satisfied. 9 Wait 3 days or so then spray your clear coat start with a very light coat let it flash then spray a little heavier coat again let it flash repeat this 3 more times then do one kind of heavy coat to give a nice top coat be careful not to do it so heavy that it will run. 10 If runs or other problems sand out problems and try another layer or so of the clear coat. 11 Give it a rest for a week or more to let the finish set. 12 Now the magic starts. Start water sanding with 400 grit until the whole body is smooth. Switch to 600 grit do same at this point it should have a finish like stainless steel next I go to 1000 grit, then 1200, then 1500, then 2000. at this point it should look like a sheet glass with very fine scratches. 13 Now you are ready to rub-out the finish. I use Meguiar's #4 (found in auto paint stores)it is a gritty compound that takes out more of the scratches. I ball up a soft rag and squeeze some compound on the body and rub like hell in a circular pattern (think of Karate Kid. . .wax on wax off). Push hard the friction helps to melt and smooth the finish. I would not recommend using a power buffer at this point unless you are really experienced cause it is easy to melt through the finish and depending on how bad you melt it you will have to go back to step 3 or 6. 14 Final step use Meguiar's #7 and once again rub like hell. 15 Give it a day before you assemble it, and pat your self on the back for a job well done. If you have any comments, suggestions, questions, corrections please feel free to let me know. I would also be interested in any thing you have learned on you project, and I would love to see any before and after pictures. Good Luck. . . be patient |\/\/\/\/| | | | 0 0) (. _) | ,___ - Later Dude | / Curt >help me please > >I got a fender jass bass that someone has butchered to fit a larger >pickup in the neck position. They cut a hole through the guitar and put >it in from the back. I want to put in J style pickups back in it. How do >I go about filling this hole to fit a normal size J style pickup in it? >Also, how do I repaint it so it will look normal again. By the way, I >don't have the money to pay someone to fix it so I'll have to do it myself. >Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. > >Ben