=========================================================================== Digest of Acoustic Pickup articles =========================================================================== -------------------------------------------------- From laus@fusion.cuc.ab.ca Wed Aug 25 12:26:23 1993 Subject: Re: Acoustic guitar pick-up, and effects -------------------------------------------------- ichou@acs2.bu.edu (Ivans Chou) writes: > In article <25aq5v$kj5@news.acns.nwu.edu>, phantom@merle.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi) writes: > |> What acoustic guitar pick-up do you recommend? I need one that would preserve > |> the acoustic sound. So, I guess I am looking for one that picks up the > |> vibration from the sound board. Am I correct in assuming this? Please advice > |> me the expected price if you know it off-hand. > > I have an Epiphone acoustic without a pickup, so I've gone through a few. First > off, you really don't want something that picks up off the sound board. The two Actually you do. The main sound of the guitar comes from the strings vibrating the soundboard, so you want some sound from the top to be mixed in with the string vibration. How much? Well, too little (or none at all) will give one of a few things... 1) it will have very little attack and sound more like an electric (especially in cheap magnetic soundhole pickups), 2) it will have too much attack and be very twangy and dull and 3) it will have too much saddle noise (if it's a under-the-saddle transducer). Too much and you'll get lots of feedback. > kinds that I've seen are the permanent kind, that installs under your bridge: > These get a little expensive, but are supposed to be the best kind, since acoustic > guitars that come with pickups are like this, but in my opinion (may not be worth > $0.02 but...) any after-market pickup of this type would probably not give the > same sound quality that the manufacturer could've put in themselves. Besides > you'd need to drill two holes (one tiny one under the bridge, and one some where on the guitar's body, usually where the strap attaches at the bottom) in your guitar, and I dunno about you, but I have this distaste to doing anything so > invasive to my guitar. The sound is closest to the acoustic sound of the guitar with the under-the- saddle pickups (other than miking the guitar) and if this is what you want, it's well worth putting it in. The acoustic properties of the guitar are only affected very slightly (compared to the other types discussed) because it is light and out of the way. There are two wiring types... the first is the center wire and the other is the end wire. The center emerges from the center of the pickup, and you drill the hole in the middle of the saddle slot on the bridge. The end wire type has the wire emerge at one end of the pickup. Installation is one of 3 methods... 1) If the guitar is bassy, drill the hole in the bass side of the slot 2) if the guitar is trebly, drill the hole in the treble side of the slot and 3) if the sound is balanced or you like the sound of the guitar as it is, drill a hole at both sides (which is what the guitar tech did when he put in mine on my first guitar) or get a center wire pickup. You don't have to drill far when putting in the plug-in for the pickup if you use a tail-pin plug. The regular plastic tail-pin goes pretty far into the tailblock, and is pretty thick too (in diameter, that is... I saw the one taken out of my guitar and was amazed at how big it was) so you only have to drill 1/2" to get through the tailblock, and that won't affect the acoustics of the guitar at all. This type of pickup is worth the investment. Makers are Fishman, Seymour Duncan, EMG, Schaller, Barcus Berry and Markley, to name a few. > This leaves the second kind of sound board pickup that I've tried. It's this > wooden thing about the size of a quarter and about 1/2 in thick that has this wad > of putty on one side that you stick on your guitar. This kind has two pro's. > First they're super cheap. Second, depending on where you stick the transducer, > you can control what it picks up (ie. put it near the low strings for best bass, > put it near the high strings for a really bright sound...), but the con's are > that you get what you pay for. They last about 3-6 months and then die, and it > leaves little bits of putty on your guitar that you have to clean up, and if you > accidently get it stuck to a piece of paper or something... you'll be picking off > tiny bits of paper shreds outta the putty for months. There are suction cup ones that stick to the top of the guitar itself but offer too much feedback because it picks up only top vibrations. Barcus- Berry makes some good putty-held ones. Major drawback: some good ones are heavy and distort the acoustic sound and will also dampen the guitar acoustically... > My choice? Sound hole pickups. Easy to install, easy to remove. Sound quality > is fair to good depending on make/model. Currently I'm borrowing one from a > friend (since my cheap stick-on transducer died). I don't recall the name, but > it's a black square thing about the size of a credit card and about 1/4 in. thick > with two short rubber "feet" on one side and a long curved rubber-coated arm on > the other side that holds it in place. Of all the sound hole pickups I've tried, > I like this one the best. The name is De(Something). I've seen it in the stores for about $65. If you want the name and model #, I can get it for you by tomorrow Name is probably DeArmond. I've use an older single coil one with adjustable pole pieces and a volume control. It vibrated sympathetically with the guitar causing massive feedback... I *hated* it. > night if you want (you can e-mail me if you're interested). Only bad thing I've > found with these is when someone accidently trips on your pickup line and yanks > the thing outta your guitar. (only harm is scratches on the guitar, screwed > up strings...) Another con is that it masks the soundhole (killing acoustic volume) and also some are heavy, again causing damping... but they're okay. My friend has a Lawrence which is pretty nice sounding (a humbucker) but it doesn't preserve the acoustic guitar sound. Makers include: DeArmond, Markley and Fender with its new Lace Sensor Bronze. > My advice? Take your guitar with you to the music store and try out the pickups > they offer, and make your pick by what suits your taste. > > |> I also need a guitar effects that I can use with the pickup you recommend me > |> above. I mainly need reverb, delay, and chorus. But other effects would be > |> useful in experiementing. I am thinking about buying one of those all in one > |> set. Is there any good ones out there under $200? > > Again... bring your guitar along and try 'em out. You can probably pickup a > really nice used digital effects bank for under $200. Reverb/chorus pedals > usually run around $80 new and delays I've seen (Boss, DoD, Roland...) run around > $100. I got this pretty good chorus pedal made by Applause (Kaman/Ovation) that > I got for $60 and I use it in line with a DoD sustain/compressor that I got for > $20 (both new). They make the guitar sound really warm and bright at the same > time (I tend to boost the treble and let my bass player cover the lows). Oh, and > remember if you shop for used ones, you can haggle over the price. Actually, you > should negotiate the price for anything (new or old). I've worked at a music > store before and I've seen the pricing scheme. Ibanex makes an FX processor dedicated to acoutic guitars with reverb, chorus, compression and delay. I've seen it for $195... check it out.. > Ivans "Never pay tagged price" Chou xtiev -- Steve Lau - "Guitar Man" -"Love my Tak'" -"You've gotta have 'hand'" -"Turn that damned amp down" .......................................................................... email: laus@fusion.cuc.ab.ca -------------------------------------------------- From ichou@acs2.bu.edu Thu Aug 26 10:43:48 1993 Subject: Re: Acoustic guitar pick-up, and effects -------------------------------------------------- Geez, I didn't know everyone's look for such technical info. I just thought people wanted some opinions on pickups. Well, now that I got my facts straight and the specs on my pickup, I guess I can give a little more informed post. Oh... first I wanted to clarify on some stuff I was rambling about in my first post. I guess I need to separate my facts from my opinions. I had mentioned that I didn't like to pickup off the sound board (opinion). The best pickups I've ever heard are those installed under the bridge by the manufacturer (fact based on personal experience). But I'm a rather obsessive acoustic guitarist and it troubles me to have to put in an after-market pickup (opinion), although I've had several friends put them in quite successfully (fact). The other option to installing a permanent one is the piezo-electric transducer (eg. Dean Markley's Artist Model). These things claim to give very faithful reproductions of the "full natural sound of your acoustical instrument". I've found the sound of the DM Artist to be very dull, though the noise of this pickup was low. This thing only lasted about 6 months before dying, so I'm glad I only shelled $30 for it. I'm not sure what your intended use for your pickup is, but I use my to amp my acoustic guitar in a large room filled with people (church on a Sunday morning). So my choice is based on that scenario. The issue here being able to amp my guitar and not for absolutely perfect reproduction of the sound. If you are intending to make recordings or something else the all bets are off. So the pickup of choice? DeArmond Model 260. This pickup features a piezo-magnetic sensor. It basically combines a humbucker magnetic coil with a transducer. The humbucking pickup reproduces the string's vibrations, while the transducer reproduces the vibrations of the guitar's body. So this pickup also amps things like thumb slaps, string squeaks and tapping on the face of your guitar. It has a balanced output, so you get an equal response from low to high E. It claims to retain FULL qualities of your guitar, but the fact that it sits in your sound hole implies that it will reduce your guitar's acoustics slightly, but again, if you're using it in a concert-type setting, then the actual acoustics of your guitar matter very little, since people in the back will be hearing only your output from speaker/amp anyhow. As for mounting. This thing is quick and simple. It's got two feet and a spring clamp that holds the pickup firmly in the sound hole. (no annoying vibrations) And you don't need to remove your strings. Just slip the clamp in and with a twist of the wrist, the rest of it goes right in. And like I mentioned in my first post. It'll stay in unless someone steps on your line and yanks it out. I've tried only a few different pickups (I think one of them was a Lawrence) but I'm very satisfied with the sound of this pickup. There is a little hiss, but that could just be our amp/mixer, or one of my cheap pedals. I've used this pickup in a Epiphone as well as a Ovation Ultra series. Sound reproduction is good, but best output seems to come from using bronze strings. As for issues like feedback with this pickup, I only had that problem twice: once was when I set my guitar down on top of my monitor and the other was when my sound man accidently threw the gain on my channel all the way up. Hope this info is more suitable. Please pardon my previous ignorance/vague info (sorry... I'm a newbie). Ivans Chou -------------------------------------------------- From skurz@boi.hp.com Tue Sep 14 17:28:22 1993 Subject: Re: Acoustic guitar pickups -------------------------------------------------- In article alighton@qualcomm.com (Al Lighton) writes: > >I just got a Taylor Dan Crary Acoustic guitar.....it's way cool. > >But I'd like to be able to play out without putting a mic in front of it. >What types of acoustic transducers do you use? Did you install it >yourself? Any cautions before I put a small hole under my bridge saddle to >run the wire thru? Do any of you use a piezo type transducer under the >bridge without installing any batteries in your guitar? How far can I run >the cable before driving a preamp? Well, maybe I can help a little. I've played a Dan Crary professionally for the last 5 years and have experimented with several pickups in that time. I've used various under-saddle piezos, a Sunrise, a Crown mic, and a matrix at different times (current setup is a Matrix under-saddle and a Crown mic with stereo jack). I've also tried both versions of the Passac preamp (not available anymore for good reason IMHO), the Baggs preamp, and the Fishman Blender. Currently I use the Matrix through the Baggs preamp for most gigs and the mic/Matrix setup through the Fishman for the "special" gigs. In my experience there is no perceptible degradation from installing the pickup and drilling the small hole in the saddle, but I would not personally attempt to do it myself. A qualified luthier is your best bet IMHO in order to protect the integrity of the guitar. This is particularly true if you have to drill out the space for a 1/4" endpin jack. I have run without any preamp or batteries installed prior to using the Matrix setup with no problem; however I really think that putting the active preamp that close to the pickup has aided in making the Matrix the best-sounding piezo-type pickup I have tried yet. Without any sort of internally mounted preamp I have run up to a 15 ft cable to the preamp without a problem, but in general the shorter the cable distance between the pickup and the preamp the better for minimizing noise and maximizing signal integrity. >I'd like to do as little mods to the guitar as possible, which means no >onboard preamp. I'd rather have a preamp external to the guitar with more >features than an internal one would have, but I'm concerned that the wire >distance will affect tone. Should I care? > >Also, what kind of internal mic type ones have you used? Do all of them >require an onboard battery? I'd really like to avoid a battery in my >guitar if possible. The mic that I use does not get it's power from an onboard battery, but rather the phantom power is supplied by the Fishman transducer. I ran for quite a while using a mic and a standard piezo (not the Matrix) with no onboard battery with no problem. Although I haven't found that an onboard battery has been a liability at all, I must admit. What is your objection to the battery, if I may ask? On a side note, 2 weeks ago we finished our festival season at Deer Valley, UT, 2 groups in front of California (GREAT players and performers!). After the shows in the "green room" I got to spend some time talking to Dan Crary himself about what he uses in *his* guitar (and as you might guess, it was a Taylor Dan Crary!). He uses a piezo (sorry, can't remember which, but not a Matrix...he was interested to hear what I thought of the Matrix, actually) and a variety of mics that he changes for different applications. He runs through the same Fishman I am using; although he carries the new "Pocket Blender" he said he has not yet tried it. As I recall, that night he was using an AKG (model ???) that he liked over the Crown because in his opinion the Crown was a bit too boomy on the bass...though he mentioned that the AKG was more prone to feedback than the Crown which was a bit of a problem for him. Personally I prefer the better bass in the Crown, but then I am more of a rhythm "contemp folk/rock" player and he is more bluegrass... Anyway he was a great guy...very willing to share experiences and compare notes with me even though he doesn't know me at all...really a fabulous player who is very much in tune with the technical details of guitar con- struction and tone generation... Hope this helps! Jan Skurzynski -------------------------------------------------- From jstemwedel@pomona.claremont.edu Wed Dec 8 11:18:21 1993 Subject: Re: Insane over solid-top issue? -------------------------------------------------- In article <-218969999@hpcvra.cv.hp.com>, andyg@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Andrew Gryc) writes: > Okay, I hate to pester everyone for advice, but here goes: > > I'm considering buying one of two instruments. They are both > acoustics with cut-aways and built-in pickups. One is an Ibanez > and the other a Takemine (sp) -- sorry, I don't remember the model > numbers, but they're both about $600.00. > Anyone have any comments/things to watch out for on these models/brands? > > Okay, the big question--neither are solid-top, they're both laminated. > I know this is a big topic of debate, but how much does this matter > sound-wise over time? I'm planning on keeping this instrument for > quite some time (20 years + as long as I'm lucky). Is it that a solid-top > sounds better with age or does a laminate top deteriorate with age (or > both)? They both sound pretty darn good to me *now*, but I'd like > them to sound good (or better) down the line. > > Am I insane for thinking about buying a "life" laminate instrument? > Does this a matter only for ears more discriminating than mine? > > Advice and comments welcome. Good, 'cause your gonna get some of these. > --Andy Gryc (andyg@hpcvra.cv.hp.com) I think that laminated top acoustics sound really thin. $600 for a laminated guitar seems like a bad deal to me. The cutaways will only steal more of the almost non-existant bass from a laminate guitar, and what kinda sound are you gonna amplify with the pickup? It'll probably sound like crap. If I were in the market for a new acoustic, I'd look at the Guild D-4 and J-4. Both are made from all solid woods, not just the top, and they are made in the US. Dealers will often sell the D-4 for under $500. The J-4, a Jumbo size, doesn't cost much more and it just sounds amazing. The D-4 sounded good, but the J-4 sounded *great*. I'd avoid most acoustics with built in pickups. They tend to be Fishman pickups, which truly bite. L.R.Baggs are the best under the saddle type, and even these don't sound amazing. The best internal acoustic amplification setups are pickup and mike, like in the Baggs duet system. Not cheap and unless you custom order it in a guitar, they'll have to cut up the one you want to put it in. It's the best, tho. You can order this in a new Taylor if you are able to spend that much. Putting a Baggs saddle pickup in a Guild J-4 is a pretty damn good sounding combo for the bucks, tho. You may spend a bit more than you're looking at spending now, but the new Guilds are *Great*, as most will agree. They'll sound even better down the road because of their *all* solid wood construction, and they'll probably pickup some value as they get older. Pierce Pettis, who records on High Street records and who I've done sound for, says he prefers the Baggs pickups, as do most of the people who he knows who record in Nashville. Fishman's are known for thin sound. avoid them. And get a real guitar, not one made of plywood. Your ears will hate you down the road if you buy one of those cheesey things. j.p. -------------------------------------------------- From wgm7642@rigel.tamu.edu Mon Apr 11 18:01:33 1994 Subject: Re: Best $1000 Guitars? -------------------------------------------------- In article , bollard@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE (Lee Bollard) writes... >Bill Willis (willis@pogo.eos.ncsu.edu) wrote: >: >: Ditto that. Especially since pickups aren't worth beans when recording an >: accoustic guitar... > >Bill - Can you tell me more about why pickups are no good for recording? >I always get alot of hiss when using a mic to record my current >acoustic (a Shure SM-57) so I thought going to a pickup might be >preferable. I'm not Bill, but I have had outstanding luck recording a mix of pickup and mic. My pickup has a lot to do with it; I have a Seymore Duncan Perfect Timber, and its nothing like your typical piezo under the saddle. It adheres to your soundboard and acts very much like a mic, without the feedback and hiss. I installed it in my Taylor 510 after YEARS of looking for the right pickup. Traditional under the saddle transducers have a very harsh quacky sound when recorded (or amplified most of the time). Because of this sonic characteristic, tons of EQ must be used to get a resonable sound. My perfect timber pickup responds to sound waves and top vibrations, giving it a very nice, very accurate reproduction of my Taylor. I usually mix my pickup with a stereo mic to get very good, studio quality results. I will tell you that I am very discriminating when it comes to recording acoustic guitar and I always strive for the truest sound possible. I highly recomend this pickup to all those in acoustic net land, its nothing like the harsh Fishman sound everyone gets used to. It does a good job of approximating a mic, while imparting a little compression that is essential for analogue recording. The bass frequencies are tight and the highs are not brittle. This is a great unit (and it comes with an on board pre-amp), and it makes up for the many shortcomings of mics (ie placement, hiss, proximity boom, etc). I will add that I use absolutely no EQ when recording anymore and I can honestly say that its my Taylor on the tape, not some pseudo-approximation. I hope someone benefits from this posting, it took years of trial and error to finally be happy. Greg Marchese P.S. Its Perfect Timbre, not Timber. I'm a terrible speller and I cannot edit my posts. Perdoname, por favor. -------------------------------------------------- From wgm7642@zeus.tamu.edu Sat Mar 26 13:14:26 1994 Subject: Re: acoustic pickups -------------------------------------------------- In article <2msife$89v@netnews.upenn.edu>, ividrevi@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (ividrevi@eniac.seas.upenn.edu) writes... >I'm thinking of getting an acoustic pickup for my guitar (one of those >easy pop-ins). Can someone recommend what should I look for in a >pickup, and what are the better ones on the market. Also how much >should I be willing to pay for those (you need to know that when you >go into those guitars stores) I have had an EMG under the saddle with onboard preamp in a Takamine that was very good. I didnt have the "quackyness" of a typical piezo and it sounded well balanced. I paid $110 installed. I just put a Seymore Duncan Perfect Timbre in my Taylor and it is absolutely phenomenal. It retails for $200 or so but Elderly Music (mail order) sent it to me for $130. This baby takes a while to set up (you have to find the sweet spot on your guitar top) but you dont have to drill a hole in your bridge to install it. Its a sensor that attaches to the underside of you guitar top and it comes with an outstanding preamp that attaches to the neck block. If your looking for true acoustic tone, only a microphone is better (IMHO). I use it for direct recording, and I am very, very discriminating. From jchall@delphi.com Wed Jun 22 10:11:54 1994 From: John Hall Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.builders Subject: Re: Acoustic/electric Pickups Date: Sun, 19 Jun 94 00:10:36 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1g.delphi.com X-To: Masaki Murakami Masaki Murakami writes: > >I've worked on, and I've no idea how this thing actually works. The high E > >string is less in volume than the others, and I can't seem to figure out a > >way to balance the volume of the strings! I DID have to put a shim under >light-top/heavy-bottom gauge strings. It is caused by unproper contact >between the saddle and the pickup. Pressures of low strings to the >saddle make 'floating' the other end of the saddle. Your absolutely right that this is the most common cause of this problem. That bridge saddle must contact the entire pickup as smoothly, precisely, and evenly as possible. Here's another trick that sometimes works. Remove the string saddle and sand it very lightly... making it slightly thinner by a few 1000ths of an inch. Then on the bottom edge of the saddle that touches the pickup, make sure that it is square by light sanding, but very slightly radius the edge that is on the string side. What happens is that when you put it back together, the saddle pulls back toward the head ever so slightly, and that radius puts a tremendous downward force on the pickup along a very thin edge. That usually does the trick. Oh, get rid of the shim. The bottom of the slot must be absolutely flat, the pickup must lie in there absolutely flat, and any string height adjustment must be done by making a new saddle piece. A new saddle made from synthetic bone like "Tusq" might help or solve the problem anyway! Cheers, John Hall __ ________| |======|===================================================== \ | \ \\ \=====|== John C. Hall Tel: 714-545-5574 ========== | | | |\ \====|== President Fax: 714-754-0135 ========== | |_ / / \ \===|== ========== | | \ \_// | |==|== Email address: 71410.106@Compuserve.com ========== /__| \__/ /__/===|===================================================== Rickenbacker International Corp. 3895 S. Main St. Santa Ana, Ca. 92707 From bj059@freenet.carleton.ca Wed Mar 1 16:52:13 1995 Path: zip.eecs.umich.edu!newshost.marcam.com!uunet!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!bcarh189.bnr.ca!bmerhc5e.bnr.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: bj059@freenet.carleton.ca (David O'Heare) Newsgroups: alt.guitar,rec.music.makers.guitar,rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Subject: Re: Pickups for Acoustics? Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 13:42:32 -0500 Organization: contractor at BNR Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <3j26g7$ad2@panix3.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nmermae4.bnr.ca Xref: zip.eecs.umich.edu alt.guitar:48444 rec.music.makers.guitar:43291 rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic:13486 In article <3j26g7$ad2@panix3.panix.com>, moskowit@panix.com (Len Moskowitz) wrote: > I'm looking for a good pickup for my acoustic guitars (6 and 12-string). > I tried one from Dean Markley that fits in the soundhole and I wasn't > impressed. Is there any advantage of a piezo pickup (either stick-on or > bridge mounted) over a magnetic one? Does anyone have a favorite? Len: I'm using a Sunrise soundhole pickup on my Marc Beneteau steel-string. I confess that part of the reason I bought it was that a bunch of my guitar heroes used it (Leo Kottke, Richard Thompson, ...). It was the first pickup that I'd tried (of about three thousand or so :-) that I liked enough to put in an endpin jack for. It sounds like my guitar. I use it with their solid-state preamp, and it sounds *wonderful* through a PA, and right good DIed onto tape. I'm not sure what the preamp *does*, exactly, but it makes the guitar warmer and more, um, acoustic sounding. A fellow that I used to be the other part of a folky duo with also has a Beneteau, and a Sunrise (he bought his because of mine). His guitar sounds different from mine acoustically, and sounds the same amplified as it does acoustic. Same strings, even with the same player. Be warned, though, that they're not cheap (I paid $300 US for the pickup and preamp about five years ago), and they're really tough to find (I ordered mine direct from the manufacturer, but that shouldn't bother you :-). I think they're worth the hassle. > > Thanks! > > -- > Len Moskowitz > Core Sound > moskowit@panix.com -- David O'Heare +1 613 765 3478 (W) +1 613 729 4830 (H) bj059@freenet.carleton.ca (Don't reply to the address in the header; I won't get the message) I speak for nobody but me. From jbresee@access1.digex.net Sun Mar 5 14:17:04 1995 Path: zip.eecs.umich.edu!newshost.marcam.com!uunet!news3.digex.net!access1!jbresee From: jbresee@access1.digex.net (Jerry Bresee) Newsgroups: alt.guitar,rec.music.makers.guitar,rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Subject: Re: Pickups for Acoustics? Followup-To: alt.guitar,rec.music.makers.guitar,rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Date: 3 Mar 1995 22:48:16 GMT Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3j86bg$7nf@news3.digex.net> References: <3j26g7$ad2@panix3.panix.com> <3j3gqe$nru@portal.gmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: zip.eecs.umich.edu alt.guitar:48723 rec.music.makers.guitar:43628 rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic:13619 Katherine Hines (khines@violin.aix.calpoly.edu) wrote: : worlds. The cost for both pickups installed is about $400. I understand : Rane Equipment has a new acoustic instrument pre-amp that is specifically : designed for this system and has gotten rave reviews. Good luck! Pendulum Audio has a similar unit, also rack-mountable, with parametric equalizers instead of Rane's graphic EQ. I had a chance to try out the two side by side with my Taylor 610, and liked the Pendulum rig a little better - but ONLY a little. Both were pricey; over $400. I'll keep using my Fishman Pro-EQ for a while longer. ============================================================= Jerry Bresee ident01: Aviation training, Delex Systems, Inc. ident02: Compulsive Musician and Sound Weenie =============================================================